Convened at 2014-10-15 18:50:36.516489 by tumbleweed
in #debconf16-capetown on oftc
[18:50:36]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: start meeting about DebConf 16 Cape Town bid planning meeting
[18:50:36]
* tibid
gets out his memo-pad and cracks his knuckles
[18:50:47]
<tumbleweed>
first item?
[18:50:59]
<nattie>
ok, we have Hint Of Agenda, soon as i dig up the mail
[18:51:06]
<tumbleweed>
all I have is the thing I mailed
[18:51:07]
<tumbleweed>
* Review of quotes received from venues
[18:51:07]
<tumbleweed>
* Figure out how to beat them down (the quotes I've seen are way too high)
[18:51:10]
<tumbleweed>
* Delegation of Location Checklist write-ups.
[18:51:13]
<tumbleweed>
any more additions?
[18:51:45]
<nattie>
i think let's just get started. the quotes will take some time to deal with
[18:51:47]
<tumbleweed>
that's a no
[18:51:53]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: topic Review of quotes received from venues
[18:51:53]
<tibid>
Current Topic: Review of quotes received from venues
[18:52:12]
<tumbleweed>
http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debconf-data/bid-capetown.git/tree/venue_info
[18:52:17]
<nattie>
so i think we currently have two concrete quotes, right?
[18:52:54]
<tumbleweed>
Technopark and River club?
[18:53:00]
<tumbleweed>
we also have a price list from schoenstatt
[18:53:15]
<tumbleweed>
and lord charles
[18:53:22]
<indiebio>
yes
[18:53:27]
<tumbleweed>
and from what I've seen of the other two quotes, they don't really deviate from the price lists
[18:53:38]
<indiebio>
I am still waiting for blackwater
[18:53:44]
<indiebio>
and chrysalis seems interested
[18:53:45]
<nattie>
oh, hold on, i missed the lord charles one
[18:54:00]
<indiebio>
it is too far in the future for them to make any special arrangements or anything...
[18:54:11]
<indiebio>
fuck. breakwater, sorry
[18:54:17]
<indiebio>
I'm a sanitation engineer :)
[18:54:17]
<tumbleweed>
:)
[18:54:45]
* tumbleweed
is glad to hear we aren't dealing with paramilitary organisations
[18:55:27]
<nattie>
though i'm sure we'll look very dashing in uniform if we have to. especially with the balaclavas.
[18:55:49]
<indiebio>
So the quotes that we have we sortof expected them to be pricey.
[18:56:04]
<tumbleweed>
I didn't expect river club to be
[18:56:06]
<nattie>
yeah, they're quoting for a lot of things we emphatically won't need
[18:56:16]
<superfly>
wow, R2 million
[18:57:10]
<wendar>
they are quoting for more rooms than we need, and 300 people for the entire 10 days
[18:57:24]
<nattie>
*nods*
[18:57:33]
<tumbleweed>
and, confusingly, for the rooms twice, or something like that
[18:57:39]
<tumbleweed>
we need to ask them to explain it
[18:57:39]
<nattie>
so certainly on that front, we can get it down by quite a bit
[18:57:42]
<nattie>
yes
[18:57:53]
<indiebio>
ok, so this isn't a valid quote anyway, I mainly asked for prices to get an analysis going.
[18:57:54]
<nattie>
i'm wondering if it's a manoeuvre to see if we flinch
[18:58:20]
<wendar>
they probably don't put much care into initial quotes, just toss in the lot, and see what people actually want
[18:58:22]
<superfly>
tell them that R2mil is about 1.9 mil over our budget :-P
[18:58:25]
<indiebio>
What I would like to see next is someone to do a spreadsheet of some kind and itemise and cost these things sothat they're comparable acorss venues
[18:58:39]
<indiebio>
The lady at river club, collette, was just trying to give as much info as possible.
[18:58:56]
<wendar>
I can do that this weekend, with the info we have so far
[18:59:03]
<nattie>
ok, so we'll call that a worst-case scenario, budget-wise
[18:59:13]
<wendar>
(reusing the spreadsheets I used for the same thing for Portland)
[18:59:41]
<indiebio>
icool, thanks wendar, I know you sent me stuff, but got lots on at the moment, and I think it's also time for the rest of the team to chip in here :)
[18:59:46]
<wendar>
do we have a standard inflation measure?
[18:59:53]
<indiebio>
I'd like to get started on the proposal...
[19:00:07]
<wendar>
I won't complain if someone else wants to do spreadsheets either/too :)
[19:00:11]
<indiebio>
I was working on 6%, but the venue people said 10% per annum, or something like that.
[19:00:21]
<tumbleweed>
10% is too high
[19:00:26]
<indiebio>
I would make it a separate cell, then we can change it later if we have to.
[19:00:55]
<superfly>
current inflation is something like 6.5% I think
[19:00:46]
<tumbleweed>
http://beta2.statssa.gov.za/?page_id=735&id=3
[19:01:12]
<wendar>
yeah, I'd really like to see how things total up for what they're quoting us now anyway
[19:01:46]
<wendar>
(for a lot of these places, I suspect we'll be negotiating down *below* current rates, not for 20% above current rates, despite inflation)
[19:02:12]
<tumbleweed>
yeah, we have to get them way down
[19:02:52]
<wendar>
The fact that we have NEB for practically nothing is a great bargaining tool. :)
[19:03:07]
<wendar>
or ChemEng, or whatever
[19:03:11]
<nattie>
so, should we work out what we're requesting?
[19:03:21]
<indiebio>
I would still not get bogged down in that until we have a proper analysis...
[19:03:40]
<indiebio>
wendar: NEB, actually. ChemEng confuses ginggs :)
[19:03:52]
<tumbleweed>
is it worth analysing quotes in detail, if we don't think they're plausible for us, yet?
[19:04:21]
<wendar>
the rough ballpark of "standard" rates is good enough for the bid
[19:04:26]
<nattie>
only inasmuch as we can hope to make a model soon and have it analysed before the next meeting
[19:04:38]
<wendar>
together with an estimate of how much "influence" we'd likely have over the venue for bargaining
[19:04:47]
<tumbleweed>
ok
[19:05:13]
<tumbleweed>
oh, I should minute this
[19:05:35]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: agreed wendar to get the quotes into a spreadsheet for comparison
[19:05:35]
<tibid>
Agreed: wendar to get the quotes into a spreadsheet for comparison
[19:05:53]
<tumbleweed>
anything else to discuss here? NEB stuff?
[19:06:33]
<indiebio>
I would say, list, plenary, breakaway etc etc, then fill in the price per day, then add them all up.
[19:06:41]
<tumbleweed>
yeah
[19:06:46]
<indiebio>
I could set up the empty table, but it will be on google sheets :P
[19:06:51]
<nattie>
we should work out how many rooms we actually need
[19:07:01]
<tumbleweed>
that will depend on the venue, to some degree
[19:07:01]
<nattie>
indiebio: wendar's got a spreadsheet from last year
[19:07:15]
<nattie>
ok, to a first approximation?
[19:07:34]
<tumbleweed>
2 talk, 2 bof, 2 hacklab
[19:07:45]
<nattie>
we'll likely only need the plenary room on two occasions (opening and closing)
[19:07:47]
<wendar>
yeah, let's stick with libreoffice, rather than google :)
[19:07:57]
<tumbleweed>
plus 100-150 double bedrooms?
[19:08:18]
<indiebio>
wendar, can you load that sheet up on alioth please?
[19:08:34]
<tumbleweed>
for the video team, plenary = main talk room is much easier
[19:08:45]
<nattie>
yes
[19:08:47]
<wendar>
indiebio: well, it's all portland at the moment, but I'll upload it when I've got a rough start
[19:09:14]
<indiebio>
'K thanks. is this the same one you emailed me?
[19:09:24]
<wendar>
yup, that's the one
[19:09:36]
<indiebio>
ok cool
[19:09:50]
<wendar>
you can see we did multiple profile estimates, based on number of attendees
[19:10:04]
<wendar>
(i.e. 200 people is a very different total than 300)
[19:10:20]
<wendar>
and for sponsored lodging/food, sliced it even finer
[19:10:26]
<indiebio>
by what time will we know if it's closer to 300 than 200?
[19:10:28]
* madduck
checking in late sorry
[19:10:46]
<wendar>
we won't know final count until quite late
[19:10:58]
<wendar>
but, we also have the power to vary how many people we sponsor quite late
[19:11:01]
<madduck>
well, depending on when you close registrations ;)
[19:11:39]
<wendar>
it's a matter of setting a base required sponsorship amount for venue, and estimates for sponsorship
[19:11:59]
<wendar>
then, closer to the time, we may find attendance is closer to 200, and that we can sponsor travel for more people
[19:12:13]
<indiebio>
ok
[19:12:20]
<wendar>
or, that we got more than the required minimum of sponsorship, which can also go to sponsor more travel
[19:12:48]
<wendar>
we will want to check with the venue and see if we'll have the ability to make slightly different room choices closer to the final date
[19:13:08]
<wendar>
(i.e. can we swap out their largest room for a slightly smaller one, 3 months before?)
[19:13:12]
<tumbleweed>
that's a good point
[19:13:28]
<wendar>
With UCT, i'm sure that'll be doable
[19:13:33]
<wendar>
with others, it'll depend
[19:13:50]
<tumbleweed>
sometimes contracts are only signed around that far in advance, right?
[19:14:33]
<wendar>
I'd hope the contract would be signed a year before, (or earlier), to lock in prices.
[19:14:42]
<wendar>
But, with options for variations later.
[19:14:55]
<wendar>
madduck: when did you sign for dc15?
[19:15:10]
<tumbleweed>
yeah
[19:15:18]
<madduck>
contract? about 13 months in advance
[19:15:23]
<wendar>
nod
[19:15:29]
<madduck>
but it's a special contract in that we can cancel without charges until april 2015
[19:15:37]
<tumbleweed>
nice
[19:15:37]
<wendar>
excellent
[19:16:05]
<madduck>
yeah, I wanted to decrease the prices further and give up this right, but then decided not to push my luck that much ;)
[19:16:21]
<wendar>
:)
[19:17:35]
<tumbleweed>
this is getting into my next agenda item of: Figure out how to beat them down (the quotes I've seen are way too high)
[19:17:46]
<tumbleweed>
I guess it's too early for that
[19:17:59]
<madduck>
no it's not.
[19:18:10]
<madduck>
i've employed two strategies
[19:18:42]
<madduck>
first, even though I was the only one negotiating at that point
[19:18:53]
<madduck>
I always said that I am just a strawman and that I need to check with my team
[19:19:13]
<madduck>
and then I was able to say things like "my team currently likes Munich better, but I think Heidelberg would be cooler, is there anything we can do…"
[19:19:23]
<tumbleweed>
:)
[19:19:32]
<superfly>
hahaha
[19:19:34]
<superfly>
nice
[19:19:38]
<madduck>
and second, I kept them updated whenever we made any advances in Munich
[19:19:48]
<madduck>
sometimes even when they weren't real, only possibilities.
[19:19:56]
<madduck>
it was bluffing, but it increased the pressure
[19:20:04]
<madduck>
because i knew early on that they wanted to host us
[19:20:14]
<madduck>
I am pretty sure you can do that too
[19:20:20]
<madduck>
and even though I don't advise bluffing
[19:20:28]
<madduck>
(unless it just so happens)
[19:20:46]
<nattie>
so who's got the least legible face here?
[19:20:50]
<madduck>
being the person out there that wants venue X and to side with them "against your own team"
[19:20:53]
<madduck>
can work very well
[19:21:39]
<madduck>
obviously it's not a guarantee for success. I was also very lucky to have had a very cooperative and young negotiation partner ;)
[19:23:14]
<tumbleweed>
all the conference centers seem to be more full-service than we want
[19:23:30]
<tumbleweed>
we need to get them down to bare-bones rooms with some chairs in them
[19:23:48]
<nattie>
yeah. and we don't need a technician
[19:24:02]
<tumbleweed>
or snacks
[19:24:21]
<indiebio>
that's why I'm holding out for places like chrysalis. but we can get back to e.g. river club with these comments...
[19:24:28]
<nattie>
snacks are nice-to-have but certainly not for an initial quote
[19:24:30]
<tumbleweed>
well, we do need tehir technicial on call, if we're hiring any equipment from them
[19:24:33]
<indiebio>
for that I need the analysis though.
[19:24:42]
<tumbleweed>
indiebio: what do you think the chance is of allowing alcohol in chrysalis?
[19:25:20]
<tumbleweed>
I guess we should be telling the venues that we're going to need a range of possibilities, depending on funding raised
[19:25:30]
<tumbleweed>
and trying to get the low end of that range as low as we can
[19:25:31]
<indiebio>
i dunno. I still need to meet with them. I think rather good if we can convince them we're responsible
[19:25:52]
<tumbleweed>
for those who weren't there, I ask this becasue there were signs up EVERYWHERE
[19:26:11]
<indiebio>
tumbleweed: meaning?
[19:26:21]
<tumbleweed>
indiebio: "no alcohol" signs
[19:26:54]
<indiebio>
well, they're working with youths at risk. but if the youths aren't there...
[19:26:58]
<tumbleweed>
yeah
[19:27:08]
<indiebio>
i don't know. I'll ask the guy when I meet with him
[19:27:12]
<tumbleweed>
cool
[19:27:18]
<tumbleweed>
ok, moving on?
[19:27:53]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: topic Delegation of Location Checklist write-ups
[19:27:53]
<tibid>
Current Topic: Delegation of Location Checklist write-ups
[19:28:15]
<tumbleweed>
we should probably start worknig on location checklist for the UCT venues
[19:28:28]
<tumbleweed>
and whatever other favourites emerge?
[19:29:00]
<tumbleweed>
I'm willing to start doing some of this
[19:29:30]
<madduck>
nattie: generally, we can do better on snacks ourselves, I believe, because our attendees are happier with more volume and longer serving times at lesser quality than what those centres can usually offer.
[19:29:55]
<nattie>
madduck: well, quite. whether we will be allowed to provide our own snacks is another matter, though
[19:30:01]
<madduck>
yeah
[19:30:03]
<tumbleweed>
nattie: we have been asking venues that
[19:30:09]
<tumbleweed>
but generally debconf is 3 meals, no snacks
[19:30:11]
<madduck>
"no alcohol" in the venue would be a first, but I wouldn't see it as a show-stopper
[19:30:22]
<tumbleweed>
this would be venue + accom
[19:31:04]
<tumbleweed>
I think we're subversive enough that we'd break any such rules, and it could be problematic
[19:31:07]
<tumbleweed>
(see portland)
[19:31:21]
<nattie>
us, break rules? surely not.
[19:31:28]
<tumbleweed>
the 5th floor doesn't exist
[19:31:35]
<wendar>
front desk was a constant stream of snacks
[19:31:42]
<tumbleweed>
oh that was true
[19:31:44]
<wendar>
(where'd that come from? somebody left it here)
[19:31:58]
<nattie>
people kept bringing us stuff, and we said "here, take!"
[19:32:03]
<tumbleweed>
front desk even delivered waffles, on occasion
[19:32:12]
<wendar>
heh
[19:32:40]
<madduck>
tumbleweed: yeah, and we are also a very responsible and reasonable crowd that doesn't misbehave in the way that makes people forbid alcohol in the venue
[19:32:52]
<nattie>
...
[19:32:55]
<nattie>
largely.
[19:33:00]
<madduck>
so in general, it's not that important because we probably won't be noticed
[19:33:04]
<tumbleweed>
madduck: yeah
[19:33:18]
<madduck>
but sure, if it means we'd get kicked out when a beer is sighted, then this would be a show-stopper i guess
[19:33:21]
<wendar>
but, official permission to bring our own food/alcohol is a plus
[19:33:39]
<wendar>
(as we're weighting venue choices)
[19:34:10]
<madduck>
wendar: unless there is food/alcohol on sale for reasonable prices, double-plus if we can influence the offerings.
[19:34:17]
<wendar>
nod
[19:34:23]
<madduck>
nod too
[19:35:56]
* Hodgestar
forgot about the meeting. :/
[19:36:00]
* Hodgestar
reads.
[19:36:13]
* wendar
back in five, changing locations for expiring parking
[19:36:13]
* tumbleweed
should program a pingall into tibid
[19:36:23]
<nattie>
Hodgestar: dude, i sent a mail to the list...
[19:37:02]
<nattie>
shall we hold for a few minutes, give Hodgestar a change to catch up while wendar moves her car?
[19:37:24]
<tumbleweed>
sure, I think we're winding up, anyway
[19:39:49]
<ginggs>
BTW, if we can get outside catering, there are plenty of companies that service the film industry here, and being winter (off-peak) we could probably negotiate good rates
[19:40:03]
<ginggs>
just mentioning that for the record, i have plenty of contacts
[19:40:04]
<tumbleweed>
yeah
[19:40:24]
<tumbleweed>
these are areas where I expect a cape town bid to be strong (cheap and good quality)
[19:40:59]
<madduck>
ginggs: how strong are these contacts? can you get non-binding preliminary inofficial approximate quotes from them? ;)
[19:41:23]
<tumbleweed>
yeah, that'd be cool
[19:41:32]
<tumbleweed>
I'd also love to see some quotes for busses
[19:41:59]
<Hodgestar>
nattie: I know. :/
[19:42:10]
<madduck>
busses are like 5€/person/day in .de, so those are negligible costs, really.
[19:42:11]
<Hodgestar>
No need to wait for me unnecessarily. I'm caught up now.
[19:42:23]
<indiebio>
please minute the bus thing, tumbleweed
[19:42:24]
<nattie>
Hodgestar: sorry, i wasn't *actually* bitching you out, just pretending to, for effect
[19:42:29]
<madduck>
tumbleweed: but yeah, getting an idea of prices would be good.
[19:42:33]
<tumbleweed>
madduck: and I'd expect even cheaper here
[19:42:40]
<madduck>
however, I would advise against getting quotes now
[19:42:53]
<tumbleweed>
but if we were in an out of the way area, we may want to provide our own shuttles
[19:42:53]
<madduck>
wait until you have more information as that opens up for better negotiation positions.
[19:43:46]
<ginggs>
re: catering: i'll send some mails
[19:45:29]
<superfly>
ya, public transport in Cape Town is pretty lousy compared to most cities in the US
[19:45:48]
<tumbleweed>
waterfront would have good myciti service
[19:45:54]
<tumbleweed>
anywhere else, ...
[19:46:07]
<nattie>
what's myciti? is that regular buses?
[19:46:15]
<tumbleweed>
yeah
[19:46:21]
<nattie>
(sorry to ask all these silly questions, but, you know, foreign.)
[19:46:24]
<tumbleweed>
except they call it an IRT
[19:46:29]
<nattie>
?
[19:46:31]
<tumbleweed>
"integrated rapid transport"
[19:46:35]
<nattie>
really.
[19:46:39]
<tumbleweed>
busses that sometimes have delegated lanes
[19:46:46]
<tumbleweed>
and bus-stops that are sort of like stations
[19:46:48]
<indiebio>
river club would also be sorted
[19:46:54]
<nattie>
like guided buses, or different?
[19:47:35]
<tumbleweed>
http://myciti.org.za/en/home/ - looks like a bus, smells like a bus, ...
[19:47:47]
<madduck>
yuk
[19:48:08]
<nattie>
ok, a bus with delusions of grandeur :)
[19:52:29]
* wendar
(here)
[19:52:43]
<nattie>
ok
[19:52:52]
<tumbleweed>
anything more?
[19:53:09]
<nattie>
what have we got minuted so far?
[19:53:26]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: minutes so far
[19:53:26]
<tibid>
Minutes available at http://corelli.tumbleweed.org.za/tibid-meetings/oftc-%23debconf16-capetown-2014-10-15-18-50-36
[19:53:28]
<nattie>
did we note that ginggs will contact the dean of engineering
[19:53:31]
<tumbleweed>
+ .html
[19:53:40]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: agreed ginggs will contact the dean of engineering
[19:53:40]
<tibid>
Agreed: ginggs will contact the dean of engineering
[19:54:00]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: agreed tumbleweed will start writing up the UCT locations
[19:54:00]
<tibid>
Agreed: tumbleweed will start writing up the UCT locations
[19:54:32]
<tumbleweed>
anything else?
[19:54:51]
<tumbleweed>
next meeting in 2 weeks? Or in a week, if there is something to discuss?
[19:55:05]
<ginggs>
ginggs will contact film production companies to get details of caterers
[19:55:06]
<nattie>
2 weeks should be fine, but we *can* discuss outside meetings, you know
[19:55:07]
<indiebio>
tumbleweed, do you have/need the UCT venue capacity link?
[19:55:17]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: agreed ginggs will contact film production companies to get details of caterers
[19:55:17]
<tibid>
Agreed: ginggs will contact film production companies to get details of caterers
[19:55:24]
<tumbleweed>
indiebio: yes, I think I have it
[19:56:01]
<indiebio>
I'd like to start with the bid proposal. I'm bored with venues, will push the ones who haven't supplied quotes, and load stuff up, but other than that I work on a request basis. :)
[19:57:20]
<tumbleweed>
ok, so that's mostly writing it up and making it pretty?
[19:57:29]
<tumbleweed>
and some overlap with things I'll be doing
[19:57:57]
<wendar>
indiobio: can we move the potential speakers piece off to a separate wiki page?
[19:58:18]
<indiebio>
ok
[19:58:50]
<wendar>
also "Public engagement initiatives"?
[19:58:57]
<indiebio>
tumbleweed: yes, and I want to play with the sponsor doc. basically just figuring out the look and feel of the thing for my own head
[19:59:05]
<wendar>
basically, anything that isn't intended for the audience of bid voting
[19:59:06]
<indiebio>
grrr. ok.
[19:59:19]
<wendar>
it's important content for *us*, but not for them
[19:59:28]
<wendar>
(could be one "local team planning" page)
[19:59:28]
<indiebio>
any particular heading, like, 'other stuff'?
[19:59:40]
<nattie>
perhaps "interna"? or is that a bit german?
[19:59:44]
<indiebio>
I was thinking it would strengthen our bid as it shows we're reaching further
[20:00:23]
<wendar>
it'll definitely strengthen the event, and help us target local sponsors
[20:00:23]
<tumbleweed>
we do have to work with the global talks team, to actually make these things happen
[20:00:28]
<indiebio>
How about 'Auxiliary activities'
[20:00:32]
<wendar>
but.. the bid is evaluated on different criteria
[20:00:52]
<wendar>
sure, I'm not picky about the title of the separate page :)
[20:00:53]
<tumbleweed>
this is more conference planning, than conference bid
[20:02:26]
<tumbleweed>
oh, we can minute this too
[20:02:41]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: agreed indiebio to start working on the bid
[20:02:41]
<tibid>
Agreed: indiebio to start working on the bid
[20:03:25]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: agreed split the conference planning bits that aren't relevant to the bid evaluation, out into their own page(s?)
[20:03:25]
<tibid>
Agreed: split the conference planning bits that aren't relevant to the bid evaluation, out into their own page(s?)
[20:03:41]
<tumbleweed>
it's been 90 mins and I'm getting hungry. Are we there yet?
[20:04:24]
<wendar>
seems like enough tasks for 2 weeks :)
[20:04:30]
<nattie>
there as we'll ever be
[20:04:33]
<tumbleweed>
that's for sure :)
[20:05:00]
<tumbleweed>
tibid: end meeting