Meeting about DebConf16 Cape Town bid

Convened at 2014-11-05 19:24:30.901907 by tumbleweed in #debconf16-capetown on oftc


[19:24:30] STARTED (tumbleweed)
[19:46:39] AGREED: indiebio will attempt to get a quote out of Breakwater campus (tumbleweed)
[20:16:21] ENDED (tumbleweed)


Raw Log

[19:24:30] <tumbleweed> tibid: start meeting about DebConf16 Cape Town bid
[19:24:30] * tibid gets out his memo-pad and cracks his knuckles
[19:24:33] <nattie> madduck: if you have concrete bits you'd like to cover, say, and we'll do that before you wander off
[19:24:45] * indiebio waves at wendar
[19:24:52] * wendar waves back
[19:24:52] <tumbleweed> madduck: the stage is yours
[19:24:59] <madduck> uh, not what I had intended! ;)
[19:25:06] <nattie> tough :)
[19:25:15] <indiebio> no time for stage fright now, mr pony.
[19:25:19] <madduck> but to answer indiebio, I think the best way forward now is to take a stab at the LocationChecklist
[19:25:27] <madduck> for a week or 10 days
[19:25:29] <tumbleweed> madduck: so, I've been doing that a bit for our venues
[19:25:34] <madduck> and then turn that into a nice wiki page
[19:25:35] <tumbleweed> but that's only been the venue specific things
[19:25:39] <tumbleweed> not overall city, yet
[19:25:42] <indiebio> so tumbleweed did two already - both for UCT, and both I can't get hold of right now
[19:25:58] <madduck> how many parallel bids do you want to submit?
[19:25:58] <tumbleweed>
[19:26:08] <madduck> or one bid with a main venue and a backup?
[19:26:14] <nattie> the latter, i think
[19:26:21] <nattie> we're not going the parallel route AFAIK
[19:26:21] <tumbleweed> that was our plan, I think
[19:26:23] <madduck> i think that's better too
[19:26:24] <nattie> since it's all one town
[19:26:36] <indiebio> to be honest, reading the debconf reports, I think with South African internet we pretty much have to stick to a university...
[19:26:43] <madduck> it's just helpful not to tell the venues that they are ranked so that you can negotiate in terms of price
[19:26:45] <nattie> i think the goal is to narrow to 1 main contender and one or two backups
[19:26:47] <madduck> if necessary
[19:26:56] <tumbleweed> indiebio: it is a big complication, yes. But I don't think insurmountable
[19:27:03] <tumbleweed> indiebio: e.g. the stadium had fibre
[19:27:10] <tumbleweed> indiebio: and presumably technopark does
[19:27:41] <indiebio> OK, but from reading that I genuinely feel UCT Engineering is my favourite, by a long way.
[19:27:57] <indiebio> And from what I gather from wendar's analysis, all the others score about the same on everything
[19:28:12] <wendar> we still don't know about Breakwater
[19:28:19] <tumbleweed> we do need breakwater prices, yes
[19:28:20] <indiebio> yes, annoying.
[19:28:30] <wendar> But, I'd put UCT main campus above everything else we've got
[19:28:31] <nattie> i like the idea of Breakwater, but without prices... can someone prod?
[19:28:43] <tumbleweed> but UCT is almost certainly going to be the cheapest, has amazing internet, and isn't *bad* by any other metric
[19:29:02] <wendar> the catering situation is unclear on UCT main campus
[19:29:05] <nattie> there's just the date constraint there
[19:29:55] <wendar> yeah, and the date constraint, though we've certainly done July before
[19:30:02] <indiebio> if we go with UCT, the dfates are likely to be 6-16 July
[19:30:34] <indiebio> re prodding, I've been emailing, will try calling when I next get a chance.
[19:30:38] <tumbleweed> I think Breakwater might have date constraints, too
[19:30:53] <tumbleweed> I saw something about some students living in the hotel, during courses
[19:31:31] <madduck> date constraints aren't such a big deal; we had them too for dc15, quite strict even
[19:31:40] <madduck> if you know well in advance.
[19:31:57] <indiebio> are we still considering other venues, seriously?
[19:32:23] <indiebio> madduck according to wendar's budgets, the venues are all currently way over budget, is that correct wendar?
[19:32:28] <tumbleweed> not unless we can get significantly better prices out of them
[19:32:32] <madduck> so my suggestion would be to flesh out the LocationChecklist for both venues, or one document with two answers to each. And then to take our Bid page, copy it and start melding it into .za form
[19:32:33] <tumbleweed> which we haven't tried to do
[19:32:41] <drnlm> Are we confident of our relationship with UCT's IT people, since that's been a sticky point in the past?
[19:32:42] <indiebio> yeah, this is just initial estimates...
[19:32:47] <madduck> wendar: can I hear some numbers?
[19:32:52] <wendar> indiebio: I wouldn't say way over budget, they all seem pretty reasonable
[19:32:59] <tumbleweed> drnlm: yeah, I am a bit scared about that. indiebio seems to have had good experience with tedx, though
[19:33:00] <wendar> madduck: they're in the spreadsheet
[19:33:04] <madduck> in Git?
[19:33:05] <indiebio> drnlm, I feel confident, but my event was a slightly different context.
[19:33:11] <wendar> madduck: yes, in git
[19:33:36] <indiebio> ginngs also knows the infrastructure and the people - a big plus
[19:33:40] <wendar> debconf16_cost_comparison.ods
[19:34:19] <ginggs> yeah, ICTS have gotten better over the years
[19:34:21] <wendar> indiebio: I mean, a free venue is nice when we're looking at higher than average travel costs. But certainly not required.
[19:34:29] <tumbleweed> indiebio: that doesn't mean we aren't going to have a lot of trouble with them (I knew them, and fought them for years :P )
[19:34:37] <wendar> indiebio: Do we know for sure that UCT main campus would be free?
[19:34:46] <madduck> wendar: so with 300 people, that's 31k €/day for venue and food?
[19:34:59] <wendar> not per day
[19:35:05] <madduck> per 5 days?
[19:35:16] <indiebio> wendar, not 100%, but I'd say... 80% or even 90%. There may be tiny costs...
[19:35:42] <indiebio> But the subject matter can be argued to be academic, so I feel confident we can argue for free/in-kind sponsorship.
[19:35:57] <wendar> madduck: the totals say what they're fore
[19:35:59] <wendar> for
[19:36:10] <indiebio> I have had very good support from UCT, even for things that were only vaguely related to academics
[19:36:23] <wendar> 50 for 5 days, 200 for 5 days, and 300 for 5 days
[19:36:57] <wendar> 50 is for DebCamp, and the other two cover two ends of our estimate range
[19:37:03] <madduck> i had an old file sorry
[19:37:04] <indiebio> wendar, I think Jameson Hall would be about R5000 per day, it gets managed a little differently, should we want to use that...
[19:37:55] <nattie> would that be for plenaries?
[19:38:02] <wendar> indiebio: we haven't included Jameson Hall, but I'll note that if we expand the set
[19:38:14] <wendar> nattie: we have closer options for plenaries
[19:38:20] <madduck> so those prices don't scare me tbh
[19:38:25] <nattie> is that the one with the organ?
[19:38:28] <madduck> i don't know what local sponsorship would be like though
[19:38:29] <indiebio> Jameson seats 1000, and LEslie social 348 or similar... I think we were thinking Jameson for Debian day
[19:38:29] <tumbleweed> nattie: yeah, it wouldn't really be for anything else. It's huge
[19:38:35] <tumbleweed> nattie: no, the organ was in the Baxter complex
[19:38:39] <nattie> oh, right.
[19:38:45] <madduck> 2k€/day for the venue isn't a whole lot.
[19:38:51] * nattie thinks we should have the place with the organ, even if it's not broken ;)
[19:38:54] <wendar> madduck: yeah, they're reasonably in the range
[19:39:01] <madduck> and given that I saw that accomodation+food will be more in the order of 20€/day/person
[19:39:04] <madduck> that should be just fine
[19:39:05] <indiebio> I haven't even looked at Baxter again. think the vibe is not what we want.
[19:41:47] <wendar> indiebio: Do you think it'd be possible to get catering quotes for UCT main campus dorms?
[19:42:09] <wendar> Oh, I guess that's dorms and coffee breaks.
[19:42:25] <wendar> If we do breakfast and lunch in the dormitory dining hall.
[19:42:29] <indiebio> I've been having trouble to get a reply from the relevant people, but ginngs met with the dean today and got the application form signed, so maybe this means we can get more ifo.
[19:42:42] <wendar> sweet! thanks ginngs
[19:42:42] <tumbleweed> ah, great
[19:42:53] <indiebio> also, it's year-end for the students here, so I think the people are quite busy right now...
[19:43:06] <indiebio> ah, ginggs.
[19:43:52] <indiebio> I emailed a caterer who's van I see on campus a lot today, will try to get a price there, and I think ginggs is looking into the movie caterers as well, now that his exams are done.
[19:44:00] <indiebio> whose. grammar.
[19:44:27] <tumbleweed> do we try and have a discussion with someone in ICTS, yet? or leave it for later?
[19:44:40] <wendar> great, yeah the catering options are useful
[19:44:57] <ginggs> tumbleweed: i think leave it for later
[19:46:12] <tumbleweed> ok, it feels like we've reached the end of a discussion
[19:46:23] <indiebio> tumbleweed, please action that I prod breakwater
[19:46:39] <tumbleweed> tibid: agreed indiebio will attempt to get a quote out of Breakwater campus
[19:46:39] <tibid> Agreed: indiebio will attempt to get a quote out of Breakwater campus
[19:47:28] <tumbleweed> so, madduck, your agenda item was about the LocationCheckList
[19:47:29] <madduck> do we know anything from the other bid teams?
[19:47:43] <nattie> i've not seen anything
[19:47:44] <tumbleweed> they seem to have been quiet on the wiki
[19:47:47] <wendar> I haven't heard, but I'm not on their mailing lists
[19:47:56] <tumbleweed> do they have any?
[19:47:58] <madduck> tumbleweed: I see that there's been work done already and it's looking good. The larger font items are more important than the smaller one
[19:48:01] <madduck> s
[19:48:07] <wendar> tumbleweed: not sure
[19:48:08] <madduck> so we should prioritise those
[19:48:13] <tumbleweed>
[19:48:22] <madduck> i have also not seen anything near as advanced as what you have
[19:48:36] <madduck> which is a good sign, but it can also be a bad surprise
[19:48:49] <madduck> especially the french like to have their cabals and non-public stuff ;)
[19:48:53] <tumbleweed> :P
[19:48:57] <madduck> so we should not rest
[19:49:13] <madduck> but I think you guys are very well on track
[19:49:15] <tumbleweed> yeah, even without competition, there's a long road ahead
[19:49:27] <indiebio> well, either way I've been having fun. I also see that highvoltage (I think?) mentioned in a report Cape Town in 2018 or 2020, so... it'll work out either way.
[19:49:42] <indiebio> Having said that, 2016 would be reeaaaallly nice for me
[19:50:10] <nattie> so, if this time isn't successful, would there be interest in trying 2 or 4 years later?
[19:50:19] <wendar> I would be
[19:50:22] <nattie> (*If*)
[19:50:35] <tumbleweed> hell yes
[19:50:42] <nattie> so would i
[19:50:42] <madduck> i think you guys will have to try hard not to win this time
[19:50:47] <tumbleweed> :P
[19:50:55] <tumbleweed> indiebio, ginggs, confluency: There are some UCT specific things in the location checklists, that need some on-the-ground checking
[19:51:01] <madduck> but it's great to see that it wouldn't be the end
[19:51:03] <drnlm> Actually organising conferences is what tends to burn people out - merely planning to run one is a lot easier
[19:51:05] <wendar> I mean, a lot of the hard work of making a bid would already be done anyway. It'd just be a time-delay on actual hosting.
[19:52:05] <indiebio> tumbleweed, I stand under correction, but a quick eyeball - a lot of those I was waiting on a contact for the venues... so I'm a bit stuck for the momet.
[19:52:11] <indiebio> also just really busy :/
[19:52:20] <tumbleweed> indiebio: yeah
[19:52:59] <tumbleweed> but anything that we can find out independantly, we should
[19:53:21] <indiebio> drnlm: true, been there done that, but can also be a really invigorating experience.
[19:54:07] <madduck> it would be really advisable to get some sort of quote from a caterer who can cater to all kinds of dietary preferences
[19:54:17] <indiebio> tumbleweed: sure. I think ginggs and I should do a lunchtime walk soonish.
[19:54:32] <madduck> having a very rough understanding of daily costs is going to help a lot
[19:54:56] <madduck> also, a list of local sponsors, no need to contact, just breadth-search…
[19:54:57] <indiebio> OK, so catering. Should we get random quotes? Generally I think food in the Cape is good, if you're going for hearty meals.
[19:55:17] <madduck> indiebio: sure, random quotes. don't need more than 2 for sure
[19:55:19] <tumbleweed> a quote would give us a starting point for the budget
[19:55:20] <indiebio> I don't have any contacts, so other peeps can also help here with recommendations, random searches and whatnot.
[19:55:32] <madduck> but you will need to cater for veg/vegan/gluten-free
[19:55:47] <indiebio> 'K, I'll also keep buggin ginggs to get his movie feeders contacted.
[19:56:02] <indiebio> yep, I saw that from the reports - lots of emphasis on the food!
[19:56:13] <madduck> we are a picky bunch
[19:56:33] <tumbleweed> and we should get the official res caterer's quote (although I've never heard anything good about their food)
[19:56:40] <nattie> no, we just have a decent sense of self-preservation
[19:56:41] <madduck> if i have my way at dc15, it'll be fun as we'll have a veg default and ask people to identify themselves as meat-needers ;)
[19:56:42] <nattie> (re food)
[19:56:53] <indiebio> Cape Town is hippie and hipster ville, they have all sorts of crazy food requirements. The difference between them and debian folk is that debian devs actually do stuff. /bitch
[19:57:07] <indiebio> madduck, I actually think that's a good option.
[19:57:11] <madduck> sure
[19:57:12] <nattie> oh, is cape town like the portland of south africa?
[19:57:12] <tumbleweed> Debian has people who make a noise and don't do anything, too :)
[19:57:12] <madduck> ;)
[19:57:18] <indiebio> probably
[19:57:19] <tumbleweed> nattie: pretty much
[19:57:26] <madduck> sounds awesome
[19:57:27] <tumbleweed> but with surfing, too
[19:57:29] <nattie> tumbleweed: ah, that's why you looked so at home :)
[19:57:35] <indiebio> I can be very nice until I encounter loafers. be warned.
[19:58:01] <madduck> and yes, you should have 10Mbit reliable networking *at the very least*
[19:58:07] <ginggs> cape town is in south africa, your choice is beef or cow
[19:58:17] <tumbleweed> madduck: UCT gets us way more than that
[19:58:20] <madduck> good
[19:58:21] <tumbleweed> although they won't give us guarantees
[19:58:35] <madduck> we don't need guarantees really
[19:58:45] <madduck> it'll all work, and if not, then it does not.
[19:58:51] <madduck> but we want to make sure it could work ;)
[19:59:05] <madduck> (or somesuch)
[19:59:09] <indiebio> rubbish ginggs, that's just your house
[19:59:12] <madduck> we are a volunteer-run, free conf after all
[19:59:17] <ginggs>
[19:59:26] <madduck> ginggs: i'll come for dinner one night. your choice of beef or cow ;)
[19:59:39] <indiebio> NO! people, that is not how we are. dammit ginggs, we actually want to host debconf16, you know?!
[20:00:38] <madduck> indiebio: no worries, there is a lot of humour around debconf and orga
[20:00:39] <ginggs> madduck: last I heard we have 550Mbit international bandwidth
[20:00:47] <tumbleweed> oh, I thought it was a gig
[20:00:51] <drnlm> If we're going with one main bid and a backup venue, should we try flesh a non-UCT option as the backup option?
[20:00:51] <wendar> indiebio: A large group of people will be thrilled by the beef or cow. :)
[20:00:55] * madduck fades out now
[20:01:00] <madduck> highlight me if there is more
[20:01:19] <tumbleweed> drnlm: that was what I was thinking, before. Breakwater as main, something else, say technopark as backup
[20:01:19] <wendar> only a few of us are dietary weirdos (I'm probably the weirdest)
[20:01:22] <ginggs> madduck: when the students aren't there on youtube and facebook, we'll have that mostly to ourselves
[20:01:34] <tumbleweed> drnlm: and Upper campus as a the easy-to-book, free backup
[20:02:18] <tumbleweed> but without pricing from breakwater, I've also been seeing upper campus as the primary venue
[20:02:18] <indiebio> 'K bye madduck, thanks for the help! :)
[20:02:35] <indiebio> I'm still thinking river club as backup...
[20:02:43] <tumbleweed> their prices were insane (and confused)
[20:02:50] <tumbleweed> but I do like it an an option
[20:03:00] <nattie> we still haven't clarified their quote, have we?
[20:03:00] <indiebio> yes, but I think we can streamline it, for sure
[20:03:09] <wendar> tumbleweed: nod, I've started thinking upper campus as primary, breakwater as first backup (if pricing is okay), and something like techno park as second backup
[20:03:17] <indiebio> agree with wendar
[20:03:38] <indiebio> we're going to book uct upper anyways, if it's free.
[20:03:42] <tumbleweed> UCT is just so easy
[20:03:52] <indiebio> so it can be a back up until very last minute or even last day...
[20:04:08] <wendar> yeah, and if we can afford to bus people out in the evenings, then it's even quite nicely located
[20:04:29] <wendar> actually, there's more in walking distance than I thought at first too
[20:04:57] <tumbleweed> it is quite a walk, though
[20:05:06] <tumbleweed> especially uphill, when you're tired
[20:05:12] <wendar> yeah
[20:05:27] <wendar> the advantage of bussing, is we can pick a different destination on various nights
[20:05:56] <ginggs> surely we can get Jammie Shuttle passes for conference delegates?
[20:06:02] <wendar> waterfront, beach, etc...
[20:06:07] <tumbleweed> I would hope so. But do they run during vac?
[20:06:35] <wendar> and how late in the evening?
[20:06:43] <wendar> would be ideal if it works, though
[20:07:09] <tumbleweed> ok, we're drifting again
[20:07:18] <tumbleweed> I think we've about covered the 2nd agenda item
[20:07:25] <tumbleweed> 3rd maybe? wendar?
[20:07:48] <wendar> which was the 3rd?
[20:07:52] <tumbleweed> * Allison to give feedback from venue price comparisons, the sheet is on
[20:07:56] <tumbleweed> git I believe.
[20:08:04] <wendar> yeah, in git
[20:08:08] <tumbleweed> 4th got mentioned in passing
[20:08:12] <wendar> still pending some we don't have prices for
[20:08:33] <indiebio> re jammie, we'll have to pay, and they might not exist, but we can probably make some sort of plan
[20:08:40] <tumbleweed> and we need clarification for river club
[20:08:50] <tumbleweed> or did that happen?
[20:09:45] <nattie> we just need to beware of not promising magic buses
[20:09:46] <indiebio> huh? clarification for what? sorry, fading...
[20:09:47] <wendar> we did get some feedback from river club
[20:09:52] <tumbleweed> ok
[20:09:53] <nattie> oh, we did?
[20:09:56] <wendar> (I was just checking email)
[20:10:20] <tumbleweed> did the feedback make it into the spreadsheet?
[20:10:22] <wendar> it didn't answer all our questions, but most
[20:10:46] <wendar> just forwarded to list
[20:11:21] <wendar> let's see, no not in the spreadsheet yet
[20:11:49] <wendar> I know, because the estimates are still using the League Room, which they say is not available any more
[20:11:57] <tumbleweed> ok
[20:13:18] <wendar> okay, I've replaced it with the new Berg room, but will need pricing and sizing for it
[20:13:30] <wendar> (I'll commit after meeting)
[20:13:33] <tumbleweed> cool
[20:13:39] <tumbleweed> anything else before we close?
[20:13:47] <tumbleweed> what do we want to get done over the next week?
[20:13:56] <tumbleweed> I want to hack on location checklist stuff a bit more
[20:14:04] <tumbleweed> and I think get all the non-venue-specific bits into the man page
[20:14:44] <nattie> s/man/main/ ?
[20:15:13] <tumbleweed> correct
[20:16:18] <tumbleweed> ok, I guess nothing else
[20:16:21] <tumbleweed> tibid: end meeting