Minutes from Meeting about CS4HS Convened at 2010-04-13 14:39:18.036398 by marcog in #algorithm on shadowfire Minutes ======= [14:39:18] STARTED (marcog) [15:41:01] ENDED (marcog) Present ======= * tumbleweed * gwylim * Sigh * ShadowMaster * Nomad010 * marcog * Michiel * kieren * dougx * bob * graham * Hamdulay Raw Log ======= [14:39:18] tibid: start meeting about CS4HS [14:39:18] * tibid gets out his memo-pad and cracks his knuckles [14:39:36] i see no reason why not to associate with Google [14:39:52] I agree [14:39:59] marcog: I think most of us would agree. [14:40:11] it gives us credability [14:40:13] Also note that none of the projects mentioned have google in their names [14:40:15] what possible cons would there be? [14:40:18] * tumbleweed can't think of any [14:40:18] unless you're running a search engine :P [14:40:44] So I'm not entirely convinced that they would neccesarily want to be explicitly named [14:41:00] just to make it clear [14:41:08] they will not be funding Algorithm Circle [14:41:18] but rather event(s) we run [14:41:25] specific ones that follow their criteria [14:41:34] those can be named after them [14:41:36] (anyone phoned ben yet?) [14:41:42] tumbleweed: yes, i did [14:41:49] OKay. marcog do you not think that this might require us to reapply for funding for each individual event. [14:41:58] marcog: as far as I can tell those are the ones where you teach the teachers [14:42:06] bob we could apply for a series of events [14:42:06] what sort of events are these? [14:42:23] bob, no we have to apply for everything we want to fall under this funding grant *now* [14:42:25] marcog: oh, that's different to what we thought? [14:42:47] Michiel: no, that is just one of their criteria [14:42:50] okay well lets move onto the next topic of discussion then which is what will we actually want to fund [14:42:51] tumbleweed: how so? [14:43:01] bob wait a sec [14:43:08] I thought we were clear that they'd fund alg circle because you run these events [14:43:10] I know, I mean its related. [14:43:12] not funding per event [14:43:35] funding algorithm circle would make admin a lot easier... [14:43:48] tumbleweed: it seems like you apply for a group of specific events run by an existing organisation that's already getting stuff done [14:44:08] it can still be AC getting the funds and running it [14:44:22] marcog: ok, thanks for clarifying [14:44:34] this is my understanding at least [14:44:46] it's crucial that we get this spot on though [14:45:14] General cs4hs info: CS4HS (Computer Science for High School) is a workshop sponsored by Google to promote Computer Science in high school curriculum. With a grant from Google's Education Group, colleges develop a 2 day program for local high school CS teachers that incorporates informational talks by industry leaders, and discussions on new and emerging CS curricula at the high school level. [14:45:35] but then past EMEA events: http://www.google.com/educators/cs4hs/emea-cs4hs/2009-awardees.html [14:46:02] marcog: seems you are correct [14:46:13] marcog: it does seem that Google does different things in America and in the EMEA [14:46:16] marcog: look at the cs4fn one [14:46:20] they cover quite a few costs [14:46:34] but it dosent'say that they just fund the organisers, yes [14:46:38] so I think you're about right [14:46:40] tumbleweed: ? [14:46:51] cs4fn? [14:46:58] oh there [14:47:00] marcog: past event [14:47:05] yeah i see now [14:47:18] Yes, cs4fn does seem very similar to what we do [14:47:21] ok, so we have to decide *what* type of event we can get them to cover [14:47:39] So onto next topic? [14:47:50] this is a rough idea i have been thinking of: http://ietherpad.com/LxJbKUhmt9 [14:47:59] yo oy yo [14:48:02] to summarise [14:48:02] You said 5? [14:48:05] hey Sigh [14:48:23] Sigh: read email, it was changed last minute thanks to ShadowMaster [14:48:30] Sorry Sigh, we had to start early cause of tests. But get the minutes from tibid [14:48:31] anyways, to summarise [14:48:51] with the python course, we've been trying to gradually expand to other cities in SA [14:48:56] tibid: minutes so far [14:48:56] Minutes available at http://holst.cs.uct.ac.za/~stefanor/tibid-logs/meetings/shadowfire-%23algorithm-2010-04-13-14-39-18 [14:48:59] if we bring in teachers to UCT [14:49:10] we teach them how to run the course [14:49:24] then we run the course cross-country later in the year [14:49:35] and have a crap-load of people coming to UCT [14:49:47] we can hire PC's and use sports center [14:49:58] marcog: where will we bring the teachers in from? [14:50:03] and then even possibly link in a competition at the end [14:50:12] to link all the locations together [14:50:19] bob: all across the country [14:50:23] we fly them in [14:51:04] marcog: though this is terribly close to the saco [14:51:09] marcog: so how many teachers and how do you choose them? [14:51:19] or atleast the style of contest I'm seeing [14:51:27] ShadowMaster: except that you teach them how to program during the course [14:51:32] ShadowMaster: no [14:51:34] /msg tibid hi [14:51:34] whereas SACO requires you to know beforehand [14:51:44] bob: that has to be decided [14:51:51] yeah [14:52:00] we have to budget how much it would cost per teacher [14:52:08] and work out how we will get teachers [14:52:14] That kind of budgetting is near impossible. [14:52:14] that is all part of the proposal [14:52:18] is there any point in running a competition if you've just taught them how to program? (does it really give any benefit?) [14:52:34] tumbleweed: you make it really simple [14:52:34] also we need to think of how we can make this is a continuous process if we lose google funding after the first year [14:52:42] marcog: that's not my question [14:52:48] would they gain anything? [14:53:14] tumbleweed: they would get a sense of how well they did compared to the rest [14:53:25] think of it like any exam at the end of a course [14:53:25] ShadowMaster: as the funding google could offer is so much more than could be scrounged locally, chances are what you do without this funding will be very different [14:53:41] tumbleweed: yes [14:53:55] Sigh: please expand? [14:53:58] Like. [14:54:05] This is the first time you are doing an event. [14:54:10] marcog: wouldn't an actual exam be better? [14:54:16] marcog: ok, I'm just worried that AlgCircle is so geared to competitions that you see everything as a nail [14:54:17] Working out a complex budget per teacher is just disasterous. [14:54:31] Hamdulay, tumbleweed: true true [14:54:45] Sigh: doesn't have to be per teacher [14:54:53] Sigh: but you need to have a pretty good budget to attract this funding, yeah what marcog is saying [14:55:02] I know. [14:55:08] Sigh: we estimate 2k per flight, 400 per night of accommodation, etc. [14:55:12] I'm just saying the budgeting-dude will have to be INSANE. [14:55:45] we will def need to try wrap in some guys who've done this sort of funding proposal before [14:56:05] Yeah, thats what I am saying. [14:56:16] I knew 1 person who was very good at event planning. [14:56:24] Not sure if he still alive/around but I can check. [14:57:27] tumbleweed, Hamdulay: although it doesn't have to follow competition-style like we currently do (i'm intending on manual marking of code anyways), we could possibly have a follow-on workshop for the top attendees [14:57:28] Urgh. [14:57:33] Ok, cancel that. He left the country. [14:57:37] ok [14:57:39] Sigh: :( [14:57:49] Gone to Ukraine [14:57:53] Of all goddam places. [14:57:58] hehe [14:58:05] still, presumably we can find people who've done funding proposals before who can help [14:58:09] Yes marcog I agree, as I don't think Google would be AS keen on competitions as on courses [14:58:17] Yeah. [14:58:28] Competitions compete somewhat with them. [14:58:38] ok [14:58:39] it can be coined as an exam or whatever [14:58:40] However, I must point out... [14:58:52] but still, we get their marks [14:59:01] hello world [14:59:01] we can have such a follow-up course for the top ones [14:59:21] on the whole, you want to be inclusive [14:59:28] but yes you want to get the top ones into algcircle :) [14:59:35] one of the requirements is "identify talent. help universities and, ultimately, employers identify and nurture talent at a young age." [14:59:39] tumbleweed: that's not the primary aim [14:59:58] tumbleweed: i want to take those who do well, and give them an incentive do do well [14:59:59] free and open source [15:00:13] Nomad010: we basically do this already [15:00:21] Yes, because nothing makes you work harder than prizes... [15:00:22] tumbleweed: if we fly down say the top 30-40 we'll be making more of an impact across the country [15:00:28] marcog: true [15:00:32] tumbleweed: that's a pretty cool incentive [15:00:54] and perhaps try get some big dude such as shuttlewortjh to come give a talk at that [15:01:02] make it *wow* i must do well [15:01:10] guys [15:01:11] You should also try promote 1) Women and 2) Previously disadvantaged. [15:01:13] it's 17:00 [15:01:18] Google would like that. [15:01:20] ok it's 17:01 [15:01:23] meeting [15:01:29] Sigh: yes, we pretty much do 1) already [15:01:38] Just saying. [15:01:38] Sigh: we had 50% girls at last course [15:01:45] so wait are we discussing crap already [15:01:46] The other possibility in order to promote 2) is to award prizes that enable them [15:01:48] we shoudl state this in proposal [15:01:48] such as netbooks [15:01:57] bob: expensive [15:02:00] marcog: That's what I am saying. [15:02:05] Sigh: kk [15:02:28] ok, so i can i just take a step back here [15:02:34] we could ramble on for ages here [15:02:38] pl [15:02:39] ok [15:02:41] um guys [15:02:44] does anyone not likle the general gist of my idea? [15:02:45] Nomad010: yes [15:02:46] can you rewind to step one [15:03:01] marcog: yes I do, tibid vote? [15:03:05] marcog: I like it [15:03:07] I do [15:03:06] Nomad010: http://ietherpad.com/LxJbKUhmt9 [15:03:21] bob do or don't like? [15:03:22] marcog: can we go point by point? [15:03:32] tumbleweed: on the proposed idea? [15:03:38] yeah [15:03:40] sure [15:03:51] 8: is that achievable? [15:04:08] tricky [15:04:10] i dunno [15:04:15] teaching people computer literacy is gonna be...dull [15:04:29] it's also out of your scope, isn't it? [15:04:31] do we really want to do that? [15:04:42] anyoen want to keep that? [15:04:47] or else we can just rm [15:04:54] No. [15:04:58] I must agree with Hamdulay. [15:04:58] No [15:05:06] Computer literacy -> Go do a goddam ICT exam online. [15:05:10] heh [15:05:10] it's gone [15:05:21] There is so many computer literacy courses. [15:05:27] *are [15:05:29] cool [15:05:31] Sigh: +1 [15:05:39] isn't there licensing and stuff teachers have to go through to become IT teachers? [15:05:40] ok, any other points to be raised about teach the teachers? [15:05:47] yeah [15:05:54] Introduce them to Python not Delphi [15:06:05] Why would the teachers want to go on the course? [15:06:08] Yes marcog which teachers? [15:06:12] my thinking was that you'll teach more effectively if they are helpers in a course too. or is that being silly? [15:06:14] How do you choose them/they choose us? [15:06:26] tumbleweed: i agree fully [15:06:28] Make sure they are either: 1) Keen to be there or 2) Youngish or 3) Maths teachers who are youngish. [15:06:33] dougx: yeah, I think the idea is to do this all in python [15:06:40] Hamdulay: i dont think so [15:06:53] graham: we need incetives for them [15:07:02] Sigh: yeah, that gets tricky when there's effectivly a junket involved [15:07:05] marcog: I don't think so [15:07:07] marcog: you don't want too much incentive [15:07:18] how do you attract teachers? [15:07:22] marcog: I think the incentive should be that they want to do it more than they want to get something out of it [15:07:25] tumbleweed: i do agree [15:07:46] marcog: where are we in the list? [15:07:48] tumbleweed: often if you speak to a school, they will just send any teacher. [15:07:48] otherwise they might cheat to get in for the incentive [15:08:04] Sigh: yeah [15:08:04] Nomad010: only about halfway through first part teaching teachers [15:08:08] marcog: Would you like any previously disadvantaged teachers from KZN? [15:08:09] ok [15:08:20] Believe it or not but some teachers genuinely want to help students learn... [15:08:21] Sigh: i think so [15:08:23] Our old school had a "vula" outreach program for teachers and students. [15:08:28] Sigh: if they're computer literate yes [15:08:39] how many teachers would actually want to come? [15:08:42] They basically did computer literacy courses [15:08:50] Like, whole year round. [15:08:52] re 9: how many computer literate teachers can't get their hands on computers? [15:08:53] Did projects, etc. [15:09:07] Guys we're getting bogged down again [15:09:19] yar I have to leave in 10 :( [15:09:20] Bob, I think my question is valid. [15:09:25] :/ [15:09:25] Oh, times. [15:09:33] bob there's a lot to get through [15:09:41] tumbleweed: good point, i don't know [15:10:02] can i make a suggestion [15:10:10] marcog: I think that could be out of scopee, too. Although obviously you'd help anyone who asked [15:10:14] I think what we need to do is actually talk to some teachers? Yes/no? [15:10:42] bob yes [15:10:42] can we rather ask everyone to add their comments/suggestions to the etherpad [15:10:48] bob: tough to find the right ones to talk to, but yes [15:10:52] and then we move onto the rest of the agenda [15:11:00] marcog: cool [15:11:04] good idea [15:11:05] otherwise we could be here forever [15:11:09] so can i just add one thing [15:11:09] and then along that line [15:11:19] * dougx is a teacher, I could talk to some teachers around the country and find out [15:11:20] reddam private schools are lazy buggers [15:11:21] if anyone has any other ideas, please write them up [15:11:24] and send them in [15:11:29] we need to give them an incentive [15:11:34] bob: can you make a mailing list for this? [15:11:43] dougx: where you located? [15:11:46] Nomad010: that's what i was trying to say [15:11:47] Will do. [15:11:48] Sigh: jhb [15:12:02] dougx: could you rope in some teachers? ;) [15:12:05] so i dunno, but it may be useful approaching via maths teachers as well as it teachers [15:12:10] marcog: sure! [15:12:17] ok end of my point [15:12:18] Nomad010: yes, i like doing that [15:12:20] Marco, surely we have the R2 mailing list? [15:12:26] To teachers. [15:12:41] Sigh: ya, but approaching teachers directly helps [15:12:57] makes them feel "special" :P [15:13:06] Yeah. [15:13:10] marcog: I can also try talking to Mr. Brock, he's at WCED now [15:13:13] ok so this is related [15:13:18] bob yes definitely [15:13:21] I mean, get from peter the emails that the teachers reply [15:13:23] next point [15:13:28] is working with other universities [15:13:31] (with the r2 scores) [15:13:35] Sigh: yes [15:13:37] UKZN is useless. [15:13:45] I have tried to make contact with all their maths dudes. [15:13:52] Just don't reply to emails. [15:13:59] i think we should work totgether with stellenbosch and run a joint thing at UCT [15:14:11] if we can hitre PC's we can get enough to work at one site [15:14:20] Unfortunately Steve isn't here at the moment [15:14:23] Why hire!? [15:14:25] i know [15:14:29] UCT has SO many pc's. [15:14:34] It's actually a goddam joke. [15:14:36] drubin: you know the guys who organised the OC? [15:14:53] If this is a conference/training course, don't mind splitting up some people. [15:14:56] bob: OC is a joke. [15:15:00] Sigh: non-science labs are difficult to get [15:15:12] Frag Lan: Really good at organising. [15:15:21] Sigh: and they won't have what we require on them , and they will go ape-shit with us installing stuff [15:15:21] marcog: Scilab A, B, C, D, Senior Lab. [15:15:31] Sigh: we want bigger [15:15:36] marcog: live flash drives [15:15:36] How many pc's? [15:15:45] Sigh: i'm thinking 500+ [15:15:47] there's also an incentive :P free flash drive... [15:15:49] If you really are serious about renting like 500 pc/s [15:16:02] For how many days? [15:16:15] dazzle calc 500 * 200 * 1 [15:16:16] for the main workshop, iv'e proposed a week [15:16:18] 5 days [15:16:20] There goes your budget. [15:16:26] tibid calc 500 * 200 * 5 [15:16:26] Sigh: 500000 [15:16:37] You can pay that 1/2 bar. [15:16:45] first site i checked does 500 a pc a week [15:16:48] ok. gtg. cheers [15:16:52] for a single pc [15:16:56] tibid: calc 500 * 500 [15:16:56] Sigh: 250000 [15:17:00] damn cheers graham [15:17:01] 1/4 bar. [15:17:04] bye. [15:17:06] we can surely get a much better rate [15:17:13] Even if you get at 50% off. [15:17:17] Thats still 125 000 [15:17:23] Logistically that makes no sense. [15:17:29] and it's not just the actual pc's marco. [15:17:31] It's power. [15:17:37] Yes, I agree with Sigh [15:17:42] tumbleweed: your thoughts? [15:17:47] You can only run like 10 PC's per 15A db board. [15:17:48] so are we onto section "Teach the kids" yet [15:17:50] ok I should go too [15:17:54] it would be better to use the infrastructure that we already have [15:17:57] I've been hosting lans for AGES. [15:18:00] Power, networking [15:18:03] huge problems. [15:18:05] during the holidays, are any of the labs being used? [15:18:10] bob: yes [15:18:15] Some are. [15:18:18] Sigh: i spoke to hussien, he says they can sort it out for us [15:18:28] Hussein is being retarded. [15:18:39] It costs Frag like 120k [15:18:45] Just to do power and networking for a 500 man event. [15:18:50] They have one every december. [15:18:52] guys I think hiring thing is just too expensive if you can book 3 uct labs that should be enough? [15:18:54] Sigh: 120k [15:18:55] we still need to get to like who's going to write this proposal and stuff. [15:18:55] And that is RAW cost. [15:19:00] not a chance [15:19:14] Nomad010: I read the audit report. [15:19:17] For frag. [15:19:17] pl [15:19:18] ok [15:19:22] enough of this [15:19:32] bob yes i agree [15:19:44] Just note in the minutes that logistics need to be discussed. [15:19:48] so i have two problems with section "teach the kids" [15:19:52] we need 2 people at minimum to dedicate time to this [15:20:10] Nomad010|Masters: write them on the pad [15:20:18] so we were still discussing collaboration with other universities... [15:20:26] marcog: 1 of them is a question [15:20:33] Nomad010: ya? [15:20:34] is this for this year? [15:20:38] no [15:20:40] ok [15:20:47] cos the dates are like soccer'ed [15:20:49] Are there enough universities out there with motivated people? And how do we get in contact with those motivated people? [15:20:57] ya Nomad010 [15:21:24] bob we have to talk around on mailing lists and irc channels be proactive ask people [15:21:38] marcog: sorry, had to run afk will read scrollback in a few minutes [15:21:51] yes. okay. [15:22:04] we need people who are going to seriously take this forward [15:22:08] ok [15:22:09] who is going to do this? [15:22:12] ni [15:22:13] no [15:22:20] thanks Nomad010 [15:22:22] they have both left already [15:22:22] one more? [15:22:30] I will [15:22:31] I don't mind helping with the actual event. [15:22:31] i said no [15:22:44] dont mind with the event' [15:22:49] Setting up rooms, projectors, etc. [15:22:51] Sigh: we need people to help now with proposal and shit [15:22:53] i can help with the event [15:22:56] cant be dedicated though or ill fail [15:22:59] that is crucial [15:23:01] i am bogged down with masters crap [15:23:02] But I generally avoid buerocratic bullshit. [15:23:17] I am bogged down with non-academic things :) [15:23:18] Sigh: you generally avoid a lot [15:23:21] Sigh: wise man [15:23:26] I can fly down to CT for the event (if gauteng is retarded) [15:23:40] anyways I'll be willing to do the proposal and stuff [15:23:43] I avoid lectures :) [15:23:45] lol [15:23:49] lol [15:23:53] dougx: we wanna try nationalise this, so would prefer it if you could stay in jhb :P [15:24:03] K, can we hustle this? I have a certain lady friend to visit :) [15:24:12] bob: we need minimum one more dedicated person on this [15:24:23] i also wanna see the sun blotted out from the sky [15:24:23] otherwise this just won't happen [15:24:25] marcog: then we must use "in your face" advertising or invitation to get people involved [15:24:34] marcog: shadowmaster and graham have left [15:24:36] ask them [15:25:04] they have 0 experience with this stuff [15:25:16] i don't think either of us have [15:25:18] *any [15:25:36] The only experience comes from December camp and Python course [15:25:38] well we need to get someone then [15:25:40] Ok. [15:25:41] who was involved in December camp? [15:25:44] Fml, cancelled. [15:25:56] bob i pretty much did 95% of the organising myself [15:26:05] bad [15:26:22] marcog really needs some help, people [15:26:35] dougx: marcog is leaving [15:26:40] marcog: when will this be happening [15:26:41] thats the problem :P [15:26:42] dougx: i can't step myself in this time, i have a thesis to finish [15:26:58] what time frame are we looking at? [15:27:00] Nomad010: that's part of the proposal we need to work on but some time next year [15:27:09] We need to do the proposals and stuff now now now [15:27:14] yes [15:27:23] i can't emphasies that enough [15:27:41] like you need a solid draft of a plan by the end of the week [15:27:41] i have a ton of other crap to do now now now [15:27:45] any proposal template online? [15:27:48] omg [15:27:51] send it around to uct staff, steve, dougx , etc [15:28:11] marcog: cant we perhaps look at Peter getting involved? [15:28:12] marcog: what does this person need to do [15:28:06] dougx: my idea http://ietherpad.com/LxJbKUhmt9 [15:28:16] is pretty much a proposal [15:28:26] bob: just the proposal [15:28:28] ? [15:28:34] Michiel: i'd really prefer not to [15:28:38] marcog: if we getst funding would we organise secretary? [15:28:43] Michiel: there are other people out there [15:28:51] he has the experience... [15:28:54] bob: [15:28:57] bob: we can budget it and see [15:29:12] Michiel: he also has his own way of doing things [15:29:15] if it is just the proposal then i am willing to help out [15:29:16] true [15:29:28] Michiel: and honestly, he's not *that* great at what he does [15:29:34] Michiel: there are better people [15:29:36] get donald [15:29:37] Cool Nomad010. [15:30:00] Nomad010: i'd honestly agree with that idea [15:30:33] also i'd like to point out for proposal: we have michelle, james, gary, hussein and steve that can help [15:30:36] who have experience [15:30:36] Hmm... I don't really know donald that well. Who would approach him? [15:30:52] james will be away until next week [15:30:55] bob i can put you in contact with him [15:30:58] bob: ok i'll help on the proposal [15:31:12] Sigh: you know donald pretty well don't you? [15:31:19] bob: nice [15:31:21] Nomad010: thanks [15:31:56] i hate all you humans [15:31:59] btw [15:32:05] If you mean 'does he molest me' [15:32:06] then no. [15:32:08] ;p [15:32:13] bob: can you write up a summary of what we discussed now [15:32:17] okay so now I want to know, is this proposal only going to be for this one huge course thingy [15:32:22] and what needs to be done *now* [15:32:29] I know him pretty much as well as any other SACO coach. [15:32:37] bob: that needs to be worked on [15:32:45] people need to pass around ideas [15:33:05] we're not going to ask them for funding for anything else like pizzas at competitions or video cameras or anything? [15:33:12] no [15:33:18] Go for the big pot. [15:33:26] After that, they might be like [15:33:29] "here, have a camera" [15:33:41] is this possible... [15:33:43] okay good idea. We need to do this so well... [15:33:55] we ask them for equipment for the event [15:33:58] and instead of hiring [15:34:03] we buy it for permanent use? [15:34:09] or bad idea? [15:34:16] marcog: good idea [15:34:32] but who's gonna be responsible for storing it and stuff [15:34:43] bob: if you need to contact me urgently then email me rather irc [15:34:49] uct societies get a locker [15:34:49] But what do we do with it afterwards??? [15:34:51] i'll probably get it faster [15:34:55] Nomad010noted [15:35:23] bob, try rope graham into this as well [15:35:35] marcog: I'm not so sure about that idea... [15:35:37] ShadowMaster: is rather busy [15:35:42] bob why? [15:35:49] yeah graham is pretty good at this stuff [15:36:10] computers are expensive and what do we do with them after the event? [15:36:14] and bob, also try get hayley after wed [15:36:21] no not that equipment [15:36:26] i mean like cameras and shit [15:36:32] . [15:36:43] tumbleweed: ? [15:36:49] * tumbleweed is back [15:36:51] oh right [15:36:56] yes good idea [15:36:58] tumbleweed: wb [15:37:32] tumbleweed: would you be keen to aid in getting the proposal out? [15:37:41] since you have a lot of technical expertise [15:38:35] marcog: I can help [15:38:48] thanks [15:39:08] thanks tumbleweed. [15:40:35] meeting adjorned? [15:40:50] adjourned [15:40:52] so, we have bob and nomad010 in charge; tumbleweed and maybe hayley helping; and then try also get graham [15:40:59] for the proposal [15:41:01] tibid: end meeting